Discussion:
Linux Market share?
(too old to reply)
Patrick Grimbergen
2005-07-12 11:50:43 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, posted this one wrongly... so again... this time the right way...
Linux is FREE...Market Share, less that 1.0 percent as a desktop
system.
Is this true?
Servers I think are about 80%, is it not?

Linux Desktop are a strange thing. If I look at my websites I get
conflicting results from the statistics. My websites are all generic
sports, museums, travel agency etc, hosted in the Netherlands and the UK.

Example: Results in June:
20% Linux/*BSD (Audistat) [http://www.schoolkorfball.org. uk]
14% Linux/*BSD (Audistat) [http://www.grimweb.info]
00% Linux/*BSD (Nedstat) [http://www.fordmuseum.nl]

None of the websites are particularly advertised in any group of OS
users. I could partly be the program, but I don't believe it should make
such a big difference. The travel agent [http://www.grimweb.info] is
most visited, and is a bit in between the both values.

I do not visit my own websites, since I can test off-line, before uploading.

How's other websites doing in this matter? 1% seems to be an
understatement.
Patrick Grimbergen
2005-07-12 11:54:14 UTC
Permalink
Sinister Midget reacted and said Sally was a trol (not relevant to topic)

John Bailo reacted following:
The most mainstream stat agencies (IDC) are calling Linux at 3% of
/paid/ desktops with estimates of that rising to 7% in the next few
years ( by 2007).

That 3 to 7 percent doesn't include anybody who downloaded a distro and
burned a CD, or a Knoppix live CD user or probably even someone who
bought a distro that was burned by a third party from Amazon or Linux
Central ( www.linuxcentral.com ) but not from the original supplier.

So, use common sense. What would the ratio of free to paid distro
users are there? I would easily estimate it at 3 to 1, which means
that 3% could be something like 12%, very easily.
l***@uku.co.uk
2005-07-12 14:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
The most mainstream stat agencies (IDC) are calling Linux at 3% of
/paid/ desktops with estimates of that rising to 7% in the next few
years ( by 2007).
That 3 to 7 percent doesn't include anybody who downloaded a distro and
burned a CD, or a Knoppix live CD user or probably even someone who
bought a distro that was burned by a third party from Amazon or Linux
Central ( www.linuxcentral.com ) but not from the original supplier.
I don't believe this is a valid assumption to make at all. Assuming
this is a great way to artificially inflate market-share but if we're
going to count these people as Linux users then we should also count
the 10's of millions of illegal copies of Windows in China, Indonesia
and elsewhere. This nonsense of "it doesn't count downloads and copies
friends give away" is an excuse to account for the low number.

For the nth time nobody is going to calculate marketshare by looking at
sales and/or download numbers. All you need to do is to survey 10,000
random computer users and you have a valid statistical sampling. No
need to count or guess how many live CD's somebody copied.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 00:22:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@uku.co.uk
Assuming
this is a great way to artificially inflate market-share but if we're
going to count these people as Linux users then we should also count
the 10's of millions of illegal copies of Windows in China, Indonesia
and elsewhere. This nonsense of "it doesn't count downloads and copies
friends give away" is an excuse to account for the low number.
Not at all. Those folks steal DVDs as well. They want free,
pushbutton lives at someone else's expense. They aren't going to dick
around trying to get Linux (especially older versions) up and running
when they can install stolen, more readily available MS crap.

There aren't enough chinese users versed well enough to support a
bunch of thieving idiots that can't earn enough to pay Billy's
exorbitant price (even more over there).

Linux IS FREE already, and that is a turn off to a thief.

Bad statistical gathering!
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 00:25:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@uku.co.uk
For the nth time nobody is going to calculate marketshare by looking at
sales and/or download numbers. All you need to do is to survey 10,000
random computer users and you have a valid statistical sampling. No
need to count or guess how many live CD's somebody copied.
Not true. A survey of 10k Boeing workers will yield a different
result than 10k average consumers that do not know anything about
technology. Being an up-n-comer (linux), many of that group aren't
even aware of the OS's availability. So a statistical sampling among
average consumers is not a valid one. A statistical sampling among
college CS or engineering students, however, would be.
Larry Qualig
2005-07-13 00:54:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by l***@uku.co.uk
For the nth time nobody is going to calculate marketshare by looking at
sales and/or download numbers. All you need to do is to survey 10,000
random computer users and you have a valid statistical sampling. No
need to count or guess how many live CD's somebody copied.
Not true. A survey of 10k Boeing workers will yield a different
result than 10k average consumers ...
Perhaps this is why I said to survey *random* computer users. For the
obvious reason that you'll get skewed results if you surveyed employees of
Sun Micro, Redhat, Msft or Boeing.
Post by TokaMundo
So a statistical sampling among
average consumers is not a valid one. A statistical sampling among
college CS or engineering students, however, would be.
If you're looking for marketshare then it needs to be random. Once you start
hand selecting "college CS students" the results become invalid. A large
enough random sampling would likely include a fair number of college
students, lawyers, government workers and garbage men. If you're out to find
what OS people in the world are using you need to survey all cross-sections
of the general population.

Assuming there are 500 million computer users on this planet and you want
the survey to be accurate to within 1%.

You would need to survey 6806 users to get a statistical result that has a
90% confidence level of being accurate to within 1%. To be 95% confident
that the results are accurate you'd need to survey 9604 users. To have a 99%
confidence level in the survey results you would need to survey 16,589
users. The number I picked (10,000) will give you a 99% confidence level
that the survey is accurate to within 1.2%.

Note: Do *not* confuse a 1.2% accuracy rate with Linux having an installed
user base of x% +/- 1.2%. The way to read this is that whatever "x%" comes
out to... that number will be accurate to within 1.2%.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 04:17:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:54:51 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
If you're looking for marketshare then it needs to be random. Once you start
hand selecting "college CS students" the results become invalid.
Not when your "selection" involves a "random" public which is largely
uninformed about the available choices... D'oh!
Larry Qualig
2005-07-13 12:34:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:54:51 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
If you're looking for marketshare then it needs to be random. Once you start
hand selecting "college CS students" the results become invalid.
Not when your "selection" involves a "random" public which is largely
uninformed about the available choices... D'oh!
But by definition this is "marketshare" is it not?
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 20:36:25 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:34:15 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by TokaMundo
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:54:51 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
If you're looking for marketshare then it needs to be random. Once you start
hand selecting "college CS students" the results become invalid.
Not when your "selection" involves a "random" public which is largely
uninformed about the available choices... D'oh!
But by definition this is "marketshare" is it not?
Yes, but let's just say that there are factors involved that many
statistical folks tend to ignore, that to me, are very pertinent.
John Kloosterman
2005-07-12 12:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Sorry, posted this one wrongly... so again... this time the right way...
Linux is FREE...Market Share, less that 1.0 percent as a desktop
system.
Is this true?
Servers I think are about 80%, is it not?
Linux Desktop are a strange thing. If I look at my websites I get
conflicting results from the statistics. My websites are all generic
sports, museums, travel agency etc, hosted in the Netherlands and the UK.
20% Linux/*BSD (Audistat) [http://www.schoolkorfball.org. uk]
14% Linux/*BSD (Audistat) [http://www.grimweb.info]
00% Linux/*BSD (Nedstat) [http://www.fordmuseum.nl]
None of the websites are particularly advertised in any group of OS
users. I could partly be the program, but I don't believe it should make
such a big difference. The travel agent [http://www.grimweb.info] is
most visited, and is a bit in between the both values.
I do not visit my own websites, since I can test off-line, before uploading.
How's other websites doing in this matter? 1% seems to be an
understatement.
Well - the problem here is the therm "market-share". It is perfectly
posible to see how many pieces of Windows OS are beeing sold, with Linux
however it is a different story. Most versions (distributions) of Linux
are free for download, so the users dont have to buy or register
anyware. That makes it almost impossible to figure out how many people
are using Linux. What makes it even more complicated is the fact that
there are many pirated versions of Windows, ánd a lot of people using
Windows and Linux in a mixed environment or as a double-boot system.

So -i think its impossible to get accurate figures. You can only use
statistic methodes, but then it depends on the willingness (and
acuressness) of the "statistical group" involved. It leaves also the
door wide open to "bias" the outcomings (as has happend in the past and
wíll happen in the future).

So - i guess there wil be no conclusive answer. I think however that the
1 percent mentionned is a far to low figure. In my neigbourhood i have
seen an strong increase of Linux desktop usters in the last half year,
so i think that figure is very dated...

John.
billwg
2005-07-12 12:57:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Kloosterman
Well - the problem here is the therm "market-share". It is perfectly
posible to see how many pieces of Windows OS are beeing sold, with Linux
however it is a different story. Most versions (distributions) of Linux
are free for download, so the users dont have to buy or register anyware.
That makes it almost impossible to figure out how many people are using
Linux. What makes it even more complicated is the fact that there are many
pirated versions of Windows, ánd a lot of people using Windows and Linux
in a mixed environment or as a double-boot system.
So -i think its impossible to get accurate figures. You can only use
statistic methodes, but then it depends on the willingness (and
acuressness) of the "statistical group" involved. It leaves also the door
wide open to "bias" the outcomings (as has happend in the past and wíll
happen in the future).
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only pertains
to whether or not your product has the largest share of that market because
your position in the market somewhat dictates your strategy and what the
future might hold for you based on market characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important thing that
you can do is to determine just what your "market" consists of.

The market for "Intel compatible desktop client operating system software",
which is the market area that Microsoft was found to have monopoly power
within, was determined by the Jackson court to specifically exclude Apple
computers and their software as well as Linux computers. Apple was excluded
then because it was not Intel compatible and Linux was excluded because it
was a server product. Given that definition, Microsoft has 100% of the
market or very close to it, since today there clearly is some linux aimed at
desktops and some money has changed hands on that basis.

The money is what makes the market. Markets are measured in terms of the
money spent to buy products that compete in the same market and market
growth or decline is measured in terms of money increases or decreases over
time. It has nothing to do with how many people use the products or how
often they use them. It only depends on how much money they spend annually
for the products.

If a customer purchases a linux based PC to replace a Windows based PC, that
is a loss of share for Microsoft. If the customer switches from Sun servers
and terminals to some distributed linux based PC network, that is a growth
of the desktop market as well as a share loss by Microsoft, but it is also
an opportunity for Microsoft to compete for the business.
Post by John Kloosterman
So - i guess there wil be no conclusive answer. I think however that the 1
percent mentionned is a far to low figure. In my neigbourhood i have seen
an strong increase of Linux desktop usters in the last half year, so i
think that figure is very dated...
John.
TokaMundo
2005-07-12 13:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only pertains
to whether or not your product has the largest share of that market because
your position in the market somewhat dictates your strategy and what the
future might hold for you based on market characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important thing that
you can do is to determine just what your "market" consists of.
Though your definition is for SOLD, "marketed" products, it would
not properly account for "consumer" penetration of the "free" portion
of what Linux is... So I agree with the last sentence. Actually, one
must determine how to redefine the word market in such a case.
Tim Prince
2005-07-12 14:16:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only pertains
to whether or not your product has the largest share of that market because
your position in the market somewhat dictates your strategy and what the
future might hold for you based on market characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important thing that
you can do is to determine just what your "market" consists of.
Though your definition is for SOLD, "marketed" products, it would
not properly account for "consumer" penetration of the "free" portion
of what Linux is... So I agree with the last sentence. Actually, one
must determine how to redefine the word market in such a case.
The usual definition compares the number of copies of Windows sold
installed, plus those bought or downloaded on legitimate trials or
distributed to TechNet and MSDN subscribers, against the number of
full-priced linux copies sold. A majority of linux installations, even
for full-time business use, will count as Windows, as the machine came
with Windows, which was replaced by a copy of linux which was not
individually purchased.
Windows vs linux market share of applications which run on both is a
more interesting measure to some of us. I spend a majority of my work
time on an application which has more individual licensees on Windows,
yet linux accounts for a large majority of the number of CPUs licensed.
Tim Prince
2005-07-12 14:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only pertains
to whether or not your product has the largest share of that market because
your position in the market somewhat dictates your strategy and what the
future might hold for you based on market characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important thing that
you can do is to determine just what your "market" consists of.
Though your definition is for SOLD, "marketed" products, it would
not properly account for "consumer" penetration of the "free" portion
of what Linux is... So I agree with the last sentence. Actually, one
must determine how to redefine the word market in such a case.
The usual definition compares the number of copies of Windows sold
installed, plus those bought or downloaded on legitimate trials or
distributed to TechNet and MSDN subscribers, against the number of
full-priced linux copies sold. A majority of linux installations, even
for full-time business use, will count as Windows, as the machine came
with Windows, which was replaced by a copy of linux which was not
individually purchased.
Windows vs linux market share of applications which run on both is a
more interesting measure to some of us. I spend a majority of my work
time on an application which has more individual licensees on Windows,
yet linux accounts for a large majority of the number of CPUs licensed.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 00:17:56 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:16:09 GMT, Tim Prince
Post by Tim Prince
A majority of linux installations, even
for full-time business use, will count as Windows, as the machine came
with Windows, which was replaced by a copy of linux which was not
individually purchased.
Do you really think that a smart IT personage would not assemble his
own machines? I know that I would. I can make high end boxes a hell
of a lot cheaper than pre-made versions, and I do not have to buy
Windblows to do it.

Faulty statistical gathering, if one asks me.
Larry Qualig
2005-07-13 00:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:16:09 GMT, Tim Prince
Post by Tim Prince
A majority of linux installations, even
for full-time business use, will count as Windows, as the machine came
with Windows, which was replaced by a copy of linux which was not
individually purchased.
Do you really think that a smart IT personage would not assemble his
own machines? I know that I would. I can make high end boxes a hell
of a lot cheaper than pre-made versions, and I do not have to buy
Windblows to do it.
I'd be most interested in hearing how you can under price Dell when it comes
to assembling a PC. Assuming that your time is worth absolutely zero, Dell
would still have you beat simply because of the economies of scale they are
able to take advantage of.
Jim
2005-07-13 00:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by TokaMundo
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:16:09 GMT, Tim Prince
Post by Tim Prince
A majority of linux installations, even
for full-time business use, will count as Windows, as the machine came
with Windows, which was replaced by a copy of linux which was not
individually purchased.
Do you really think that a smart IT personage would not assemble his
own machines? I know that I would. I can make high end boxes a hell
of a lot cheaper than pre-made versions, and I do not have to buy
Windblows to do it.
I'd be most interested in hearing how you can under price Dell when it comes
to assembling a PC. Assuming that your time is worth absolutely zero, Dell
would still have you beat simply because of the economies of scale they are
able to take advantage of.
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise,
I'll go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction
of knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
--
Cheers, http://www.dotware.co.uk
Jim http://www.dotware-entertainment.co.uk

Are more people violently opposed to wearing fur than leather because
it's easier to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs?
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 00:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise,
I'll go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction
of knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
And it will certainly out perform it as well.
Larry Qualig
2005-07-13 01:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Qualig
I'd be most interested in hearing how you can under price Dell when it
comes to assembling a PC. Assuming that your time is worth absolutely
zero, Dell would still have you beat simply because of the economies of
scale they are able to take advantage of.
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise, I'll
go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction of
knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
Are you telling us that you put those green and purple neon lights in your
case. I'm talking about "pimp my ride" but with computers.

Sort of like this....

http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Jim
2005-07-13 01:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by Larry Qualig
I'd be most interested in hearing how you can under price Dell when it
comes to assembling a PC. Assuming that your time is worth absolutely
zero, Dell would still have you beat simply because of the economies of
scale they are able to take advantage of.
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise, I'll
go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction of
knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
Are you telling us that you put those green and purple neon lights in your
case. I'm talking about "pimp my ride" but with computers.
Sort of like this....
http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Yes. Totally. My clear acrylic box has: ten 6" neon bars, various
colours, 24 LED bolts holding it together, also various colours, 60 feet
of neon string, also various colours, 9 cold cathode lit fans, 4
blacklights, and all the cables are treated or have been switched out
for UV reactive. Everytihng is controlled by switches on the fascia,
with the exception of the fangear, which is all on thermionic diodes.
The face cover and side panel have been etched with UV transfers, the
the top fan has a few streamers tied onto the grille. Looks fantastic,
goes like shit off a shovel, and cost me an absolute packet. Saying
that, I did build it last year, and for what I paid for the processor I
could at today's prices, build the whole system in a cheap and nasty
steel midi tower case.
--
Cheers, http://www.dotware.co.uk
Jim http://www.dotware-entertainment.co.uk

Are more people violently opposed to wearing fur than leather because
it's easier to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs?
Larry Qualig
2005-07-13 01:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by Jim
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise,
I'll go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction of
knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
Are you telling us that you put those green and purple neon lights in
your case. I'm talking about "pimp my ride" but with computers.
Sort of like this....
http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Yes. Totally. My clear acrylic box has: ten 6" neon bars, various colours,
24 LED bolts holding it together, also various colours, 60 feet of neon
string, also various colours, 9 cold cathode lit fans, 4 blacklights, and
all the cables are treated or have been switched out for UV reactive.
Everytihng is controlled by switches on the fascia, with the exception of
the fangear, which is all on thermionic diodes. The face cover and side
panel have been etched with UV transfers, the the top fan has a few
streamers tied onto the grille. Looks fantastic, goes like shit off a
shovel, and cost me an absolute packet. Saying that, I did build it last
year, and for what I paid for the processor I could at today's prices,
build the whole system in a cheap and nasty steel midi tower case.
Wow... I never would have guessed it. When I read these COLA posts I tend to
get this "mental picture" of how I envision the other posters. I realize
that my mental picture is completely wrong 98% of the time but I can't help
but form one anyhow to associate with the names and people here. Well Jim,
my mental picture of you never included this "computing disco" of a system
that you have.

I have a friend (yes folks... bring on the posts of how could I possibly
have a friend - Hint: I pay him well.) who built a very nice system for
himself. It doesn't have the lights and stuff but it's the huuuge all
aluminum case made by Lian-Li or something like that. The case looked
beautiful and he installed really quiet cooling fans and etc. in it. There
was just something about this really tall bare-metal aluminum tower that
looked really cool. But as you mentioned, these cases do not come cheap.
Jim
2005-07-13 02:02:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by Jim
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise,
I'll go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction of
knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
Are you telling us that you put those green and purple neon lights in
your case. I'm talking about "pimp my ride" but with computers.
Sort of like this....
http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Yes. Totally. My clear acrylic box has: ten 6" neon bars, various colours,
24 LED bolts holding it together, also various colours, 60 feet of neon
string, also various colours, 9 cold cathode lit fans, 4 blacklights, and
all the cables are treated or have been switched out for UV reactive.
Everytihng is controlled by switches on the fascia, with the exception of
the fangear, which is all on thermionic diodes. The face cover and side
panel have been etched with UV transfers, the the top fan has a few
streamers tied onto the grille. Looks fantastic, goes like shit off a
shovel, and cost me an absolute packet. Saying that, I did build it last
year, and for what I paid for the processor I could at today's prices,
build the whole system in a cheap and nasty steel midi tower case.
Wow... I never would have guessed it. When I read these COLA posts I tend to
get this "mental picture" of how I envision the other posters. I realize
that my mental picture is completely wrong 98% of the time but I can't help
but form one anyhow to associate with the names and people here. Well Jim,
my mental picture of you never included this "computing disco" of a system
that you have.
I have a friend (yes folks... bring on the posts of how could I possibly
have a friend - Hint: I pay him well.) who built a very nice system for
himself. It doesn't have the lights and stuff but it's the huuuge all
aluminum case made by Lian-Li or something like that. The case looked
beautiful and he installed really quiet cooling fans and etc. in it. There
was just something about this really tall bare-metal aluminum tower that
looked really cool. But as you mentioned, these cases do not come cheap.
Lian-Li cases are gorgeous. I particularly like the swish-fronted,
brushed chrome finish they use, especially when they use blue LED bars
for hidden highlighting. Kinda makes me moist. My next build will most
likely be in one of those.

Hopefully it'll be soon, as nefertiti's well overdue for a
strip/polish/rebuild, she's picked up a lot of dust over the past year
(oops to me for not installing filters from the getgo!), and I don't
want to do that until there's a box ready to go in while that's doing.
--
Cheers, http://www.dotware.co.uk
Jim http://www.dotware-entertainment.co.uk

Are more people violently opposed to wearing fur than leather because
it's easier to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs?
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 04:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
Kinda makes me moist.
Ewwww.... TMI, dude!
The Ghost In The Machine
2005-07-13 18:00:07 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, TokaMundo
<***@weedizgood.org>
wrote
on Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:27:30 GMT
Post by TokaMundo
Post by Jim
Kinda makes me moist.
Ewwww.... TMI, dude!
Seconded, though http://www.lianli.com resolved to
http://www.silverpcs.com/ which among others features some
very odd pyramid casings. Not sure about their capabilities
but there's some art thereto.

(Also some bling. $295 for an aluminum server case? Woof.
Not that I'm in the market admittedly -- though it's tempting.)
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:56:58 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:00:07 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, TokaMundo
on Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:27:30 GMT
Post by TokaMundo
Post by Jim
Kinda makes me moist.
Ewwww.... TMI, dude!
Seconded, though http://www.lianli.com resolved to
http://www.silverpcs.com/ which among others features some
very odd pyramid casings. Not sure about their capabilities
but there's some art thereto.
(Also some bling. $295 for an aluminum server case? Woof.
Not that I'm in the market admittedly -- though it's tempting.)
Nice link.
I guess I was talking about the v1000 in silver.

They are way overpriced though. Looks like that goes for all of
them. Amazing how kids fund a small company like that into a monster.

Same thing happened with a LOT of OEM vid card makers. Now, some of
them are considered real "players".

I always liked my Asus card because it had a nice set of LCD shutter
goggles, and actually implemented that part of the NVIDIA chip's
capability. Sad that it never worked under Linux though. Current
drivers for the card has abandoned support for it even under windows.
Too many interrupts maybe... it does use two when "active".
I find it sad that the Gforce chips have had the capability from their
early days but no card makers made use of it other than Asus.

Man, Quake 3 was awesome in true 3-D!!!
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 04:25:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
Yes. Totally. My clear acrylic box has: ten 6" neon bars,
Those are water lines, dude.
Jim
2005-07-13 04:32:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by Jim
Yes. Totally. My clear acrylic box has: ten 6" neon bars,
Those are water lines, dude.
nope, no water cooling - heck, I don't allow a cup of coffee within
eight feet of it!
--
Cheers, http://www.dotware.co.uk
Jim http://www.dotware-entertainment.co.uk

Are more people violently opposed to wearing fur than leather because
it's easier to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs?
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 07:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim
Post by TokaMundo
Post by Jim
Yes. Totally. My clear acrylic box has: ten 6" neon bars,
Those are water lines, dude.
nope, no water cooling - heck, I don't allow a cup of coffee within
eight feet of it!
Sorry,I thought you were describing the box in the URL.
The Ghost In The Machine
2005-07-13 04:00:03 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Larry Qualig
<***@uku.co.uk>
wrote
on Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:12:19 -0400
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by Larry Qualig
I'd be most interested in hearing how you can under price Dell when it
comes to assembling a PC. Assuming that your time is worth absolutely
zero, Dell would still have you beat simply because of the economies of
scale they are able to take advantage of.
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise, I'll
go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction of
knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
Are you telling us that you put those green and purple neon lights in your
case. I'm talking about "pimp my ride" but with computers.
Sort of like this....
http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Nice eye candy if one likes glow-in-the-dark neon blue, but
does it enhance performance when fragging people with UT2004
or Halo 2? :-)

I'm inclined to think more along the lines of a Dell case (mostly
because the Precision cases open up nicely to get at things)
or the G5 (ditto, though I've never owned one). Of course the
real gem is the video card -- or would be; all I've got is
a sucky ATi9000 (which is currently sitting in a plastic case,
not in use) and a BT5500 (which is OK but still has framerate
problems with complex UT2004 scenery -- but it's a heck of
an improvement over the aforementioned ATi9000).

So OK, I've been an engineer way too long... :-)
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 04:59:49 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:00:03 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
I'm inclined to think more along the lines of a Dell case (mostly
because the Precision cases open up nicely to get at things)
Go to alt.binaries.pictures.misc to see my Antec case. It is VERY
modular inside, and I couldn't be more satisfied with it.

I do so like those lian-li jobs I saw that "Monarch" showcased with
all the tiny holes in the front panel... Cool!
The Ghost In The Machine
2005-07-13 18:00:06 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, TokaMundo
<***@weedizgood.org>
wrote
on Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:59:49 GMT
Post by TokaMundo
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 04:00:03 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
I'm inclined to think more along the lines of a Dell case (mostly
because the Precision cases open up nicely to get at things)
Go to alt.binaries.pictures.misc to see my Antec case. It is VERY
modular inside, and I couldn't be more satisfied with it.
I don't have access to that newsgroup (mostly because I've not
bothered to set up my Leafnode) but http://www.antec.com/us
does have some interesting capabilities, touting among other
things isolated thermal zones and a sleek but simple bordered-black/
anodized aluminum and/or cold-rolled steel affair (the P180).

I don't know how revolutionary it is but it does look nice.
Of course, it's also priced accordingly - $169 - but it should
last awhile.

(And that's sans power supply, AFAICT, though it does come with
several trispeed cooling fans.)

There's also a number of other cases. I'm all for transparency
in software development but I can't say I find clear plastic
side insets all that useful. :-)
Post by TokaMundo
I do so like those lian-li jobs I saw that "Monarch" showcased with
all the tiny holes in the front panel... Cool!
Hmm...I have no idea what case you're referring to, then,
but certainly holes are a necessity somewhere if only to
get the heat out. :-)
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
Angry American
2005-07-13 18:47:42 UTC
Permalink
"The Ghost In The Machine" <***@sirius.athghost7038suus.net> wrote in
message news:m3vfq2-***@sirius.athghost7038suus.net...
http://www.antec.com/us
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
does have some interesting capabilities, touting among other
things isolated thermal zones and a sleek but simple bordered-black/
anodized aluminum and/or cold-rolled steel affair (the P180).
I don't know how revolutionary it is but it does look nice.
Of course, it's also priced accordingly - $169 - but it should
last awhile.
I thought the same, ordered one for a custom computer I built for a
customer. Although the case is very nicely designed, its built very cheaply.
The aluminum is very thin, the front is very cheap plastic, and internal
edges are not treated for burs or sharp edges. If I could somehow combine
the style of this case with Lian Li build quality, I would love it to death.

Dan
The Ghost In The Machine
2005-07-13 20:00:04 UTC
Permalink
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Angry American
<***@n0spam.com>
wrote
on Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:47:42 -0500
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
http://www.antec.com/us
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
does have some interesting capabilities, touting among other
things isolated thermal zones and a sleek but simple bordered-black/
anodized aluminum and/or cold-rolled steel affair (the P180).
I don't know how revolutionary it is but it does look nice.
Of course, it's also priced accordingly - $169 - but it should
last awhile.
I thought the same, ordered one for a custom computer I built for a
customer. Although the case is very nicely designed, its built very cheaply.
The aluminum is very thin, the front is very cheap plastic, and internal
edges are not treated for burs or sharp edges. If I could somehow combine
the style of this case with Lian Li build quality, I would love it to death.
Dan
Hmm...noted. Perhaps that's why the Lian-Li cost more.

I can only guess at this point.
--
#191, ***@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 22:09:28 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:00:04 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Angry American
Post by Angry American
I thought the same, ordered one for a custom computer I built for a
customer. Although the case is very nicely designed, its built very cheaply.
The aluminum is very thin, the front is very cheap plastic, and internal
edges are not treated for burs or sharp edges. If I could somehow combine
the style of this case with Lian Li build quality, I would love it to death.
Dan
Hmm...noted. Perhaps that's why the Lian-Li cost more.
I can only guess at this point.
Well, after looking further, I have personally concluded that the
Lian jobs are far superior, very well designed cases. They do,
however, carry a hefty price tag.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 22:04:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:47:42 -0500, "Angry American"
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
http://www.antec.com/us
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
does have some interesting capabilities, touting among other
things isolated thermal zones and a sleek but simple bordered-black/
anodized aluminum and/or cold-rolled steel affair (the P180).
I don't know how revolutionary it is but it does look nice.
Of course, it's also priced accordingly - $169 - but it should
last awhile.
I thought the same, ordered one for a custom computer I built for a
customer. Although the case is very nicely designed, its built very cheaply.
The aluminum is very thin, the front is very cheap plastic, and internal
edges are not treated for burs or sharp edges. If I could somehow combine
the style of this case with Lian Li build quality, I would love it to death.
Yes, I too am noticing that they are far better cases...
chrisv
2005-07-14 13:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by Angry American
If I could somehow combine
the style of this case with Lian Li build quality, I would love it to death.
Yes, I too am noticing that they are far better cases...
Chenbro makes some very nice cases, too.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:45:09 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:00:06 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
I don't have access to that newsgroup (mostly because I've not
bothered to set up my Leafnode) but http://www.antec.com/us
does have some interesting capabilities, touting among other
things isolated thermal zones and a sleek but simple bordered-black/
anodized aluminum and/or cold-rolled steel affair (the P180).
Mine is the P160, but my stickers are cool too!
I have an ESD sticker! Oh BOY! :-]
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:47:13 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:00:06 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
There's also a number of other cases. I'm all for transparency
in software development but I can't say I find clear plastic
side insets all that useful. :-)
You can bet the FCC doesn't like them either. They aren't even
legal here, and if your neighbor complains about RF interference, and
they locate you as the source, they nail yer butt for it (not YOU).:-]
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:48:30 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 18:00:06 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
Post by The Ghost In The Machine
Hmm...I have no idea what case you're referring to, then,
but certainly holes are a necessity somewhere if only to
get the heat out. :-)
Pretty sure it's all form not function as it is on the front only,
and has another panel behind it, but it looks great. I saw it in this
month's Linux Journal.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 04:20:42 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:12:19 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
Sort of like this....
http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Pretty lame, and NOT an FCC acceptable cabinet.

I wish all that shit would get turned back at the docks.

On the other hand, I can make a fully sealed box, and fill it with a
dielectric fluid, allowing me to overclock it way past those hosed up
water wheel POSes.
rapskat
2005-07-13 07:45:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Larry Qualig
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise, I'll
go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction of
knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
Are you telling us that you put those green and purple neon lights in your
case. I'm talking about "pimp my ride" but with computers.
Sort of like this....
http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Heh. I guess it's just a difference in
opinions/tastes/preferences/priorities/etc., but I never really cared much
what my system looked like, but I care alot what it performs like.

Considering my tower is usually hidden away anyways, this seems like a
moot point.

"Hey, what's that strange glow coming from underneath your desk?"
--
rapskat - 03:42:59 up 4 days, 3:15, 4 users, load average: 0.44, 0.61, 0.56
"The Arkansas legislature passed a law that states that the
Arkansas River can rise no higher than to the Main Street bridge in
Little Rock."
Jim
2005-07-13 11:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by rapskat
Post by Larry Qualig
if all I want is a bog standard box, nothing special aesthetics-wise, I'll
go buy a Dell. But I'm a showoff, I like the Bling factor. So I buy
components and assemble my own. Sure, it works out more expensive than
buying a Dell with XP preinstalled, but it affords me the satisfaction of
knowing that I've built it myself. Kinda like raising a barn, yanno?
Are you telling us that you put those green and purple neon lights in your
case. I'm talking about "pimp my ride" but with computers.
Sort of like this....
http://aquaboxpc.com/products/halcyon/
Heh. I guess it's just a difference in
opinions/tastes/preferences/priorities/etc., but I never really cared much
what my system looked like, but I care alot what it performs like.
Considering my tower is usually hidden away anyways, this seems like a
moot point.
"Hey, what's that strange glow coming from underneath your desk?"
hehe... my acrylic box sits on top of my desk, next to the twin panel
TFT. It's got the Bling factor /and/ the performance factor. :)
--
Cheers, http://www.dotware.co.uk
Jim http://www.dotware-entertainment.co.uk

Are more people violently opposed to wearing fur than leather because
it's easier to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs?
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 00:49:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:29:31 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by TokaMundo
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:16:09 GMT, Tim Prince
Post by Tim Prince
A majority of linux installations, even
for full-time business use, will count as Windows, as the machine came
with Windows, which was replaced by a copy of linux which was not
individually purchased.
Do you really think that a smart IT personage would not assemble his
own machines? I know that I would. I can make high end boxes a hell
of a lot cheaper than pre-made versions, and I do not have to buy
Windblows to do it.
I'd be most interested in hearing how you can under price Dell when it comes
to assembling a PC.
For a standard desktop, perhaps. What if I am trying to make high end
CAD workstations though?
Post by Larry Qualig
Assuming that your time is worth absolutely zero, Dell
would still have you beat simply because of the economies of scale they are
able to take advantage of.
On year old (minimum) OEM motherboards.

What if I want a dual CPU, Dual core capable MOBO that I can expect
3 to 5 years of reliable fast operating service from? I have to do
that myself.
Larry Qualig
2005-07-13 01:15:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 20:29:31 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
Post by TokaMundo
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:16:09 GMT, Tim Prince
Post by Tim Prince
A majority of linux installations, even
for full-time business use, will count as Windows, as the machine came
with Windows, which was replaced by a copy of linux which was not
individually purchased.
Do you really think that a smart IT personage would not assemble his
own machines? I know that I would. I can make high end boxes a hell
of a lot cheaper than pre-made versions, and I do not have to buy
Windblows to do it.
I'd be most interested in hearing how you can under price Dell when it comes
to assembling a PC.
For a standard desktop, perhaps. What if I am trying to make high end
CAD workstations though?
Post by Larry Qualig
Assuming that your time is worth absolutely zero, Dell
would still have you beat simply because of the economies of scale they are
able to take advantage of.
On year old (minimum) OEM motherboards.
What if I want a dual CPU, Dual core capable MOBO that I can expect
3 to 5 years of reliable fast operating service from? I have to do
that myself.
That's cool. I've pretty much built my own systems for the past 15 years or
so. Probably because I prefer to upgrade one component at a time. New video
card one year. A few months later I might get some new hard drives. A new
mobo and RAM the next. Then start the cycle over again.

I still to this "to a degree" but it's just easier, faster and cheaper
(oddly enough) to just get a whole new machine. I still do a fair amount of
customization by adding my own RAID controller, drives and etc to it.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 04:24:15 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 21:15:23 -0400, "Larry Qualig"
Post by Larry Qualig
That's cool. I've pretty much built my own systems for the past 15 years or
so. Probably because I prefer to upgrade one component at a time. New video
card one year. A few months later I might get some new hard drives. A new
mobo and RAM the next. Then start the cycle over again.
I still to this "to a degree" but it's just easier, faster and cheaper
(oddly enough) to just get a whole new machine. I still do a fair amount of
customization by adding my own RAID controller, drives and etc to it.
My system was a dual athlon that only just recently started looking
slower than what is now out there...

The box I described is due to my boss wanting me to assemble a box
for him that allows him to confidently feel that it will last for at
least a couple years. I'll drop a couple grand on it, but hey... an
XT was $5k without a hard drive. These kids today got it made, and
the money even comes easier!

It is still hard to give yer old box to a kid, and not have him turn
his nose up at it... sad.
B Gruff
2005-07-13 12:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only
pertains to whether or not your product has the largest share of
that market because your position in the market somewhat dictates
your strategy and what the future might hold for you based on market
characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important
thing that you can do is to determine just what your "market"
consists of.
Though your definition is for SOLD, "marketed" products, it would
not properly account for "consumer" penetration of the "free"
portion of what Linux is... So I agree with the last sentence.
Actually, one must determine how to redefine the word market in such
a case.
I wonder what happens if one speaks of the market as "number bought" -
literally?

For instance, there was a large "market" over here many years ago for
plastic daffodils. One was given away "free" (bundled) with every
packet of a well-known detergent.

The Windows advocates here would have me believe that Windows is
"free" (gratis) in that it is bundled with a new computer.
Obviously, if price is the same (as was the packet of detergent with
or without the plastic daffodil), it will tend to be "bought".

Hows abouts we compare the number of Windows systems "sold" (we could
consider first just the private consumer) by walking into the shop
and buying the boxed edition, or by doing so by mail order, against
Linux "sold"?
I could even go on to argue that Linux downladed for gratis is "sold"
with a selling price of zero, in that obtaining it was not
conditional on buying anything else.

I wonder if that might change the picture?:-)

(btw, I don't see many plastic daffodils in vases these days!)

Bill
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 20:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by B Gruff
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only
pertains to whether or not your product has the largest share of
that market because your position in the market somewhat dictates
your strategy and what the future might hold for you based on market
characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important
thing that you can do is to determine just what your "market"
consists of.
Though your definition is for SOLD, "marketed" products, it would
not properly account for "consumer" penetration of the "free"
portion of what Linux is... So I agree with the last sentence.
Actually, one must determine how to redefine the word market in such
a case.
I wonder what happens if one speaks of the market as "number bought" -
literally?
For instance, there was a large "market" over here many years ago for
plastic daffodils. One was given away "free" (bundled) with every
packet of a well-known detergent.
The Windows advocates here would have me believe that Windows is
"free" (gratis) in that it is bundled with a new computer.
Obviously, if price is the same (as was the packet of detergent with
or without the plastic daffodil), it will tend to be "bought".
Hows abouts we compare the number of Windows systems "sold" (we could
consider first just the private consumer) by walking into the shop
and buying the boxed edition, or by doing so by mail order, against
Linux "sold"?
I could even go on to argue that Linux downladed for gratis is "sold"
with a selling price of zero, in that obtaining it was not
conditional on buying anything else.
I wonder if that might change the picture?:-)
(btw, I don't see many plastic daffodils in vases these days!)
WOW... I like that observation! :-]
TokaMundo
2005-07-12 13:07:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
The market for "Intel compatible desktop client operating system software",
which is the market area that Microsoft was found to have monopoly power
within, was determined by the Jackson court to specifically exclude Apple
computers and their software as well as Linux computers.
What IS a "Linux computer"? A computer which has Linux on it, or
one that is capable of operating under Linux...

Quandry, I'd say...
billwg
2005-07-12 17:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
The market for "Intel compatible desktop client operating system software",
which is the market area that Microsoft was found to have monopoly power
within, was determined by the Jackson court to specifically exclude Apple
computers and their software as well as Linux computers.
What IS a "Linux computer"? A computer which has Linux on it, or
one that is capable of operating under Linux...
Quandry, I'd say...
No quandary if you understand the context. A computer sold without Windows
and with Linux was the definition used by the Jackson court.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 00:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
No quandary if you understand the context. A computer sold without Windows
and with Linux was the definition used by the Jackson court.
Nearly all PCs sold without windows are hand assembled, and hand
installed. There aren't that many vendors actually producing Linux
installed boxed, so th statistic gets skewed quite a bit.
Patrick Grimbergen
2005-07-13 04:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Nearly all PCs sold without windows are hand assembled, and hand
installed. There aren't that many vendors actually producing Linux
installed boxed, so th statistic gets skewed quite a bit.
I have a promedion computer (centrally essembled), it came without an
Operating System, but they did strongly advise me to buy a OEM WinXP at
the store, because the normal version is X-times more expensive. They
gave me a weird look when I said I did not want any Microsoft prducts on
the PC.... ever...
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 07:41:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 06:43:50 +0200, Patrick Grimbergen
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Post by TokaMundo
Nearly all PCs sold without windows are hand assembled, and hand
installed. There aren't that many vendors actually producing Linux
installed boxed, so th statistic gets skewed quite a bit.
I have a promedion computer (centrally essembled), it came without an
Operating System, but they did strongly advise me to buy a OEM WinXP at
the store, because the normal version is X-times more expensive. They
gave me a weird look when I said I did not want any Microsoft prducts on
the PC.... ever...
Darn... you can't see my weird look! :-] It's for them, however.
billwg
2005-07-13 16:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Post by TokaMundo
Nearly all PCs sold without windows are hand assembled, and hand
installed. There aren't that many vendors actually producing Linux
installed boxed, so th statistic gets skewed quite a bit.
I have a promedion computer (centrally essembled), it came without an
Operating System, but they did strongly advise me to buy a OEM WinXP at
the store, because the normal version is X-times more expensive. They gave
me a weird look when I said I did not want any Microsoft prducts on the
PC.... ever...
Well, you might interpret it as a weird look, but most people would have the
same response to oddballs.
John Bailo
2005-07-13 16:44:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Post by TokaMundo
Nearly all PCs sold without windows are hand assembled, and hand
installed. There aren't that many vendors actually producing Linux
installed boxed, so th statistic gets skewed quite a bit.
I have a promedion computer (centrally essembled), it came without an
Operating System, but they did strongly advise me to buy a OEM WinXP at
the store, because the normal version is X-times more expensive. They gave
me a weird look when I said I did not want any Microsoft prducts on the
PC.... ever...
Well, you might interpret it as a weird look, but most people would have the
same response to oddballs.
You mean like a Windope who spends all day monitoring a Linux ng?
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Bailo
Post by billwg
Well, you might interpret it as a weird look, but most people would have the
same response to oddballs.
You mean like a Windope who spends all day monitoring a Linux ng?
Hehehe....
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Post by TokaMundo
Nearly all PCs sold without windows are hand assembled, and hand
installed. There aren't that many vendors actually producing Linux
installed boxed, so th statistic gets skewed quite a bit.
I have a promedion computer (centrally essembled), it came without an
Operating System, but they did strongly advise me to buy a OEM WinXP at
the store, because the normal version is X-times more expensive. They gave
me a weird look when I said I did not want any Microsoft prducts on the
PC.... ever...
Well, you might interpret it as a weird look, but most people would have the
same response to oddballs.
How does his desire to assemble, setup, and load up his own computer
his own way make him an "oddball".

Your remark is meaningless.
TokaMundo
2005-07-12 13:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Apple was excluded
then because it was not Intel compatible and Linux was excluded because it
was a server product.
What? Linux was initially a server product, and has garnered
INTEREST as a desktop OS, and has slowly evolved toward that end.
It has always been a server OS.
Post by billwg
Given that definition, Microsoft has 100% of the
market or very close to it,
Do you even know how many Linux servers are in operation out there?
Millions.
Post by billwg
since today there clearly is some linux aimed at
desktops and some money has changed hands on that basis.
OK... so now, you are saying that it was a server OS... Ummm make
up yer mind...
billwg
2005-07-12 17:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
Apple was excluded
then because it was not Intel compatible and Linux was excluded because it
was a server product.
What? Linux was initially a server product, and has garnered
INTEREST as a desktop OS, and has slowly evolved toward that end.
It has always been a server OS.
Post by billwg
Given that definition, Microsoft has 100% of the
market or very close to it,
Do you even know how many Linux servers are in operation out there?
Millions.
Post by billwg
since today there clearly is some linux aimed at
desktops and some money has changed hands on that basis.
OK... so now, you are saying that it was a server OS... Ummm make
up yer mind...
You seem confused.
TokaMundo
2005-07-12 13:14:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
The money is what makes the market. Markets are measured in terms of the
money spent to buy products that compete in the same market and market
growth or decline is measured in terms of money increases or decreases over
time.
Yes, the current definition of the term market is for sold products.
Post by billwg
It has nothing to do with how many people use the products or how
often they use them.
Seems Bill thinks differently. He is not happy about the popularity
of the FREELY available OS product called Linux...
Post by billwg
It only depends on how much money they spend annually
for the products.
For the strictest analysis of the term, yes... however, for a
statistic of number of OSes on boxes, the stats are quite different.
Post by billwg
If a customer purchases a linux based PC to replace a Windows based PC, that
is a loss of share for Microsoft. If the customer switches from Sun servers
and terminals to some distributed linux based PC network, that is a growth
of the desktop market as well as a share loss by Microsoft, but it is also
an opportunity for Microsoft to compete for the business.
Once a customer switches to Linux.... good luck.. Billy. When the
numbers come in at the end of the year, the IT department is happy,
and gets bonuses... No turning back then...
billwg
2005-07-12 17:37:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
The money is what makes the market. Markets are measured in terms of the
money spent to buy products that compete in the same market and market
growth or decline is measured in terms of money increases or decreases over
time.
Yes, the current definition of the term market is for sold products.
Post by billwg
It has nothing to do with how many people use the products or how
often they use them.
Seems Bill thinks differently. He is not happy about the popularity
of the FREELY available OS product called Linux...
How do you know what Bill thinks? Did he tell you? Or did you read that in
COLA?
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
It only depends on how much money they spend annually
for the products.
For the strictest analysis of the term, yes... however, for a
statistic of number of OSes on boxes, the stats are quite different.
How do you know that number?
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
If a customer purchases a linux based PC to replace a Windows based PC, that
is a loss of share for Microsoft. If the customer switches from Sun servers
and terminals to some distributed linux based PC network, that is a growth
of the desktop market as well as a share loss by Microsoft, but it is also
an opportunity for Microsoft to compete for the business.
Once a customer switches to Linux.... good luck.. Billy. When the
numbers come in at the end of the year, the IT department is happy,
and gets bonuses... No turning back then...
A myth to be sure. An IT department buying Sun Microsystems hardware is a
worse proposition than an IT department buying Intel hardware and running
linux. The latter is a lot closer to buying Windows than the former and
which Intel compatible vendor is going to advertise the most and have the
most recognition?
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 00:40:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
How do you know what Bill thinks? Did he tell you? Or did you read that in
COLA?
Are you saying that Billy and his directors aren't getting sweaty
armpits?
billwg
2005-07-13 16:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
How do you know what Bill thinks? Did he tell you? Or did you read that in
COLA?
Are you saying that Billy and his directors aren't getting sweaty
armpits?
If I had his kind of money in my account, I might worry about a
thermonuclear war, but I wouldn't worry at all about some silly twits
telling one another that a homemade server OS is going to eat my lunch. Do
you remember the Iraqi Public Relations guy? His job was telling silly
twits that they were actually winning the war and that the invaders were
suffering terrible losses. The Iraqis who didn't live near the airport
believed him.

Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its officers
are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale? People
have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a curiosity
in the desktop environment. It is being used a lot now as a server, but
mostly that is due to IBM adopting it as a marketing ploy against Sun. The
use of linux in those venues is mostly Red Hat, too. Novell has about 10%
of the Red Hat volume and there isn't anyone apparently in third place.

Keep kidding yourself, though, you seem to enjoy it!
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Post by TokaMundo
Post by billwg
How do you know what Bill thinks? Did he tell you? Or did you read that in
COLA?
Are you saying that Billy and his directors aren't getting sweaty
armpits?
If I had his kind of money in my account, I might worry about a
thermonuclear war, but I wouldn't worry at all about some silly twits
telling one another that a homemade server OS is going to eat my lunch. Do
you remember the Iraqi Public Relations guy? His job was telling silly
twits that they were actually winning the war and that the invaders were
suffering terrible losses. The Iraqis who didn't live near the airport
believed him.
Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its officers
are quaking in their boots over linux,
Well.. why not be forthcoming about access parameters on NTFS
volumes? Fear!

With over 150 other file systems out there that ARE disclosing their
access parameters, why does Billy choose to thumb his nose at the rest
of the free world? Also, why does BillyWare not allow one to look at
or access other file system volumes while one operates in his severely
threatened OS realm? Fear!
Post by billwg
but who is telling that tale? People
have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a curiosity
in the desktop environment.
Yeah right... it is a curiosity. Tell that to IBM, and the
Pentagon. They'll laugh in your face.

Why did Billy make deals with IBM to disclose particulars about
WIN32 so that OS/2 could utilize it, then back out of his agreement?
Fear!
Post by billwg
It is being used a lot now as a server, but
mostly that is due to IBM adopting it as a marketing ploy against Sun.
Wrong. It has been used as a server for years now, and IBM has only
just recently gotten on board. You lack historical knowledge, thus
you cannot make a valid argument in this arena.
Post by billwg
The
use of linux in those venues is mostly Red Hat, too.
Wrong.
Post by billwg
Novell has about 10%
of the Red Hat volume and there isn't anyone apparently in third place.
Novell doesn't have ANY percentage of "The Red Hat volume". Do you
know how stupid that sounds?
Post by billwg
Keep kidding yourself, though, you seem to enjoy it!
Go look in a mirror, you speak of yourself.
billwg
2005-07-14 12:26:48 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:45:10 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: >
: >"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message
: >news:***@4ax.com...
: >> On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 17:37:18 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: >> us:
: >>
: >>>How do you know what Bill thinks? Did he tell you? Or did you read
that
: >>>in
: >>>COLA?
: >>
: >> Are you saying that Billy and his directors aren't getting sweaty
: >> armpits?
: >
: >If I had his kind of money in my account, I might worry about a
: >thermonuclear war, but I wouldn't worry at all about some silly twits
: >telling one another that a homemade server OS is going to eat my lunch.
Do
: >you remember the Iraqi Public Relations guy? His job was telling silly
: >twits that they were actually winning the war and that the invaders were
: >suffering terrible losses. The Iraqis who didn't live near the airport
: >believed him.
: >
: >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
officers
: >are quaking in their boots over linux,
:
: Well.. why not be forthcoming about access parameters on NTFS
: volumes? Fear!
:
: With over 150 other file systems out there that ARE disclosing their
: access parameters, why does Billy choose to thumb his nose at the rest
: of the free world? Also, why does BillyWare not allow one to look at
: or access other file system volumes while one operates in his severely
: threatened OS realm? Fear!
:
I do not know what you mean by "access parameters" unless you are talking
about the file permissions set during file open operations, Toka, you will
need to be more specific. I am at a loss to see how this might relate to
any fear that Bill Gates might have either. Could you connect this up? As
to alternate file system access, they do connect to FAT and FAT32, of
course, but maybe those don't count with you. Even so, I wouldn't attribute
that restriction to any fear. Rather, that would seem to indicate a bold
confidence that their system was superior to yours and so yours would not
need to be considered. No money in it, eh? BTW, if you scout around, you
can find folks giving away or selling installable file systems for WinNT and
later installations. All it takes is a .SYS file to do the job.

: > but who is telling that tale? People
: >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
curiosity
: >in the desktop environment.
:
: Yeah right... it is a curiosity. Tell that to IBM, and the
: Pentagon. They'll laugh in your face.
:
Let's see here, if I tell them that I don't think that Bill Gates is quaking
in his boots over linux and that linux has not had any meaningful
penetration in terms of desktop use in over 10 years, they will laugh at me?
When IBM was in the desktop business, did they even offer a linux machine
for sale? Has the Pentagon ever made an order for linux machines? I saw
recently where the Navy bought some billion dollars worth of Windows
machines for installation throughout the Naval Air Systems Command sites as
well as on shipboard.

: Why did Billy make deals with IBM to disclose particulars about
: WIN32 so that OS/2 could utilize it, then back out of his agreement?
: Fear!
:
Hell, Toka, Bill Gates made a deal with ME to disclose particulars about
Win32 APIs! They call it the MSDN Subscription series. I recommend the
Enterprise level, you get everything you need at a great price!

: > It is being used a lot now as a server, but
: >mostly that is due to IBM adopting it as a marketing ploy against Sun.
:
: Wrong. It has been used as a server for years now, and IBM has only
: just recently gotten on board. You lack historical knowledge, thus
: you cannot make a valid argument in this arena.
:
Well, it has been several years now and linux was nowhere until Big Blue got
the idea to use it as an excuse to drop their price.

: > The
: >use of linux in those venues is mostly Red Hat, too.
:
: Wrong.

Nope. Look at what is shipping, silly.
:
: > Novell has about 10%
: >of the Red Hat volume and there isn't anyone apparently in third place.
:
: Novell doesn't have ANY percentage of "The Red Hat volume". Do you
: know how stupid that sounds?
:
You seem to misinterpret the remark, Toka. It seemed clear to me. What it
meant was Red Hat sells more than ten times as much linux as Novell,
measured by dollar volume per the SEC reports filed by RHAT and NOVL. How
did you interpret it? Certainly not that Red Hat is distributing Novell
Linux as well as their own?

: >
: >Keep kidding yourself, though, you seem to enjoy it!
:
: Go look in a mirror, you speak of yourself.

Well, I do enjoy my posts, Toka! Don't you? Be honest now! LOL!!!
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 13:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
I do not know what you mean by "access parameters" unless you are talking
about the file permissions set during file open operations, Toka, you will
need to be more specific.
For a LONG time now, NTFS was only read access from Linux. The
reason was because our illustrious "friends" over at MS would not give
any particulars on writing to the file system correctly.

We eventually "back doored" our way into it. Too bad for Billy. We
got what we wanted after all.
billwg
2005-07-14 14:10:55 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:26:48 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: >I do not know what you mean by "access parameters" unless you are talking
: >about the file permissions set during file open operations, Toka, you
will
: >need to be more specific.
:
:
: For a LONG time now, NTFS was only read access from Linux. The
: reason was because our illustrious "friends" over at MS would not give
: any particulars on writing to the file system correctly.
:
: We eventually "back doored" our way into it. Too bad for Billy. We
: got what we wanted after all.

Maybe, maybe not, Toka, but how does that relate to showing "fear"?
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 13:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
I am at a loss to see how this might relate to
any fear that Bill Gates might have either. Could you connect this up?
Yes, you are indeed lost. Keeping us out of NTFS file systems meant
that Billy could keep Linux servers from accessing NTFS. Pretty
simple.

The other file systems were never an issue. FAT 16 was known, and
FAT 32 wasn't much of a stretch from that.
billwg
2005-07-14 14:12:19 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:26:48 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: > I am at a loss to see how this might relate to
: >any fear that Bill Gates might have either. Could you connect this up?
:
: Yes, you are indeed lost. Keeping us out of NTFS file systems meant
: that Billy could keep Linux servers from accessing NTFS. Pretty
: simple.
:
: The other file systems were never an issue. FAT 16 was known, and
: FAT 32 wasn't much of a stretch from that.

You don't seem to have a useful attention span, Toka. We were talking about
"fear" here. Try to get back to the context.
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 13:17:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Let's see here, if I tell them that I don't think that Bill Gates is quaking
in his boots over linux and that linux has not had any meaningful
penetration in terms of desktop use in over 10 years, they will laugh at me?
When IBM was in the desktop business, did they even offer a linux machine
for sale?
I already told you IBM has only just now gotten into Linux. You can
bet theirs will be robust as well.
Post by billwg
Has the Pentagon ever made an order for linux machines?
Yes. They order gear, and integrate all the components together, and
then the IS guy sets them up with Linux.

Are you that unfamiliar with how IS/IT departments operate? Larger
situations (like as in a fleet or large corporation) put together
their own machines from the ground up. The military even buys their
hard drives DIRECTLY from the manufacturers. In fact early hard drive
designs were inspired by military directives... You know, like
vibration tolerance, MTBF, and the like. Most of those reliability
specs began in the military.

So they certainly place their own operating systems on them. And
they were not windblows machines either. Hell, most were not even
Intel based.

So for them to indicate to a department that they want 100 Linux
machines is no more difficult to achieve than simply assembling the
machines, and loading the OS which was dictated by the command orders.
Post by billwg
I saw
recently where the Navy bought some billion dollars worth of Windows
machines for installation throughout the Naval Air Systems Command sites as
well as on shipboard.
Yeah.. and every single one was in NON critical situations... You
know.. like the recreation hall.
billwg
2005-07-14 14:18:08 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:26:48 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: >Let's see here, if I tell them that I don't think that Bill Gates is
quaking
: >in his boots over linux and that linux has not had any meaningful
: >penetration in terms of desktop use in over 10 years, they will laugh at
me?
: >When IBM was in the desktop business, did they even offer a linux machine
: >for sale?
:
: I already told you IBM has only just now gotten into Linux. You can
: bet theirs will be robust as well.
:
: > Has the Pentagon ever made an order for linux machines?
:
: Yes. They order gear, and integrate all the components together, and
: then the IS guy sets them up with Linux.
:
: Are you that unfamiliar with how IS/IT departments operate? Larger
: situations (like as in a fleet or large corporation) put together
: their own machines from the ground up. The military even buys their
: hard drives DIRECTLY from the manufacturers. In fact early hard drive
: designs were inspired by military directives... You know, like
: vibration tolerance, MTBF, and the like. Most of those reliability
: specs began in the military.
:
: So they certainly place their own operating systems on them. And
: they were not windblows machines either. Hell, most were not even
: Intel based.
:
: So for them to indicate to a department that they want 100 Linux
: machines is no more difficult to achieve than simply assembling the
: machines, and loading the OS which was dictated by the command orders.
:
I wonder where all those UPS and FedEx trucks leaving the Dell warehouse
loading docks are headed. Since you know so much, do you know about them?

: > I saw
: >recently where the Navy bought some billion dollars worth of Windows
: >machines for installation throughout the Naval Air Systems Command sites
as
: >well as on shipboard.
:
: Yeah.. and every single one was in NON critical situations... You
: know.. like the recreation hall.

Well, tell that to the naval aviators using them to brief the sorties they
flew in Iraq a couple of years back, Toka. But leave yourself some room to
run if one of them decides you are an oddball and in need of education!
LOL!!!
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 16:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
I wonder where all those UPS and FedEx trucks leaving the Dell warehouse
loading docks are headed. Since you know so much, do you know about them?
IIRC, Dell offers a Linux machine now.
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 16:13:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Well, tell that to the naval aviators using them to brief the sorties they
flew in Iraq a couple of years back, Toka.
Is briefing considered "mission critical"? Before you answer that,
do you even know what "mission critical" means?

Are they running the TAC4 system on Windows now?

Is windows on any of their RTOS hardware?
Same question for embedded.
Post by billwg
But leave yourself some room to
run if one of them decides you are an oddball and in need of education!
LOL!!!
How many windows systems are on the C-17 that Boeing builds?
What about their F-18?

What about the YF-22?

Hmmm?

LOL indeed.
Patrick Grimbergen
2005-07-14 18:48:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
I wonder where all those UPS and FedEx trucks leaving the Dell warehouse
loading docks are headed. Since you know so much, do you know about them?
Not relevant, UPS and FedEx run Linux OS and the Dell computers can be
purchased with RedHat pre-installed, if I recall correctly they give you
a $80 discount if you order linux instead of WinXP as well and DELL is
not the only one!

Also many linux users don't know you can buy pre-installed linux at
dell, so they decide to buy WinXP and then remove it so to install Linux
at home. It also happens that people do not like RedHat, but prefer eg
Gentoo or another flavor, and therefore order without a OS pre-installed.
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 13:21:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Hell, Toka, Bill Gates made a deal with ME to disclose particulars about
Win32 APIs! They call it the MSDN Subscription series. I recommend the
Enterprise level, you get everything you need at a great price!
And you still could not write you own OS with them.

Also, back in the day of the deal OS/2 was to receive info that was
not being released at the time, and it was very likely BEFORE MSDN
even existed.

It is the very same reason that DesqViewX went by the way side. Tell
us... oh oracle... how many desktops did that OS reside on?

The key word you didn't see was the hook in your back...
that was "great price!". We got you beat there too.
billwg
2005-07-14 14:26:19 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:26:48 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: >Hell, Toka, Bill Gates made a deal with ME to disclose particulars about
: >Win32 APIs! They call it the MSDN Subscription series. I recommend the
: >Enterprise level, you get everything you need at a great price!
:
:
: And you still could not write you own OS with them.
:
Why would I want to do that, Toka? Why would anyone? Do you write your own
OS? Why? Are you an oddball?

: Also, back in the day of the deal OS/2 was to receive info that was
: not being released at the time, and it was very likely BEFORE MSDN
: even existed.
:
: It is the very same reason that DesqViewX went by the way side. Tell
: us... oh oracle... how many desktops did that OS reside on?
:
You are saying that DesqViewX had a deal with Gates to disclose particulars
about the Win32 APIs and he reneged and so they went by the wayside?
Amazing!

: The key word you didn't see was the hook in your back...
: that was "great price!". We got you beat there too.

Well, every year I make more money off if it than the year before, Toka!
What's wrong with that?
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 16:15:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
: >Hell, Toka, Bill Gates made a deal with ME to disclose particulars about
: >Win32 APIs! They call it the MSDN Subscription series. I recommend the
: >Enterprise level, you get everything you need at a great price!
: And you still could not write you own OS with them.
Why would I want to do that, Toka? Why would anyone? Do you write your own
OS? Why? Are you an oddball?
: Also, back in the day of the deal OS/2 was to receive info that was
: not being released at the time, and it was very likely BEFORE MSDN
: even existed.
: It is the very same reason that DesqViewX went by the way side. Tell
: us... oh oracle... how many desktops did that OS reside on?
You are saying that DesqViewX had a deal with Gates to disclose particulars
about the Win32 APIs and he reneged and so they went by the wayside?
Amazing!
: The key word you didn't see was the hook in your back...
: that was "great price!". We got you beat there too.
Well, every year I make more money off if it than the year before, Toka!
What's wrong with that?
What you mean is that you cost companies way more to operate their
business than they really need to be paying.
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 13:23:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Well, it has been several years now and linux was nowhere until Big Blue got
the idea to use it as an excuse to drop their price.
You're not correct. It was used for years as a server OS, quite
successfully, and NOW THAT IBM has embraced it, it is garnering even
more acceptance.
billwg
2005-07-14 14:27:38 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:26:48 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: >Well, it has been several years now and linux was nowhere until Big Blue
got
: >the idea to use it as an excuse to drop their price.
:
: You're not correct. It was used for years as a server OS, quite
: successfully, and NOW THAT IBM has embraced it, it is garnering even
: more acceptance.

Oh, you are just fooling yourself, Toka, and not fooling anyone else. But
maybe that is because you are easier to fool.
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 16:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
: >Well, it has been several years now and linux was nowhere until Big Blue
got
: >the idea to use it as an excuse to drop their price.
: You're not correct. It was used for years as a server OS, quite
: successfully, and NOW THAT IBM has embraced it, it is garnering even
: more acceptance.
Oh, you are just fooling yourself, Toka, and not fooling anyone else. But
maybe that is because you are easier to fool.
Watch out, boy. Jesus said "Never say `Thou fool'..."
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 13:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
You seem to misinterpret the remark, Toka. It seemed clear to me. What it
meant was Red Hat sells more than ten times as much linux as Novell,
Red Hat began selling ten times earlier as well. Now redo the math
of your remark. Guess what? Look at the rate that Suse is gaining
while you do.
Post by billwg
measured by dollar volume per the SEC reports filed by RHAT and NOVL. How
did you interpret it?
As yet another biased FUD.
Post by billwg
Certainly not that Red Hat is distributing Novell
Linux as well as their own?
Get off it.
billwg
2005-07-14 14:35:09 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:26:48 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: >You seem to misinterpret the remark, Toka. It seemed clear to me. What
it
: >meant was Red Hat sells more than ten times as much linux as Novell,
:
: Red Hat began selling ten times earlier as well. Now redo the math
: of your remark. Guess what? Look at the rate that Suse is gaining
: while you do.
:
: >measured by dollar volume per the SEC reports filed by RHAT and NOVL.
How
: >did you interpret it?
:
: As yet another biased FUD.
:
I think you are just trying to be difficult, Toka. How is it "FUD" to say
that Red Hat has a lot more revenue from linux than Novell? FUD means
"fear, uncertainty, and doubt" and describes the tactic of getting someone
to doubt the wisdom of their decision to take an untested route based on
pointing out possibilities for failure relative to the more well-known
results that come from the more popular decision. For example, I could tell
a person that they would be in danger of having their system obsolete if
they choose linux since there is no one but little companies supporting it
and there are so many different versions that it is hard to find one that is
likely to be around in a couple of years. Far safer to pick Windows, since
it comes with the computer and you can take it all back if it doesn't work
out.


: > Certainly not that Red Hat is distributing Novell
: >Linux as well as their own?
:
: Get off it.

It was your idea, Toka.
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 16:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
FUD means
"fear, uncertainty, and doubt"
I thought it meant F**ked Up Disinformation.
billwg
2005-07-14 23:27:01 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 14:35:09 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
: > FUD means
: >"fear, uncertainty, and doubt"
:
: I thought it meant F**ked Up Disinformation.

Well, there is a lot of things that you seem to have the wrong view of,
Toka! Maybe when you grow up you'll have learned more. LOL!!!
TokaMundo
2005-07-15 01:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
: > FUD means
: >"fear, uncertainty, and doubt"
: I thought it meant F**ked Up Disinformation.
Well, there is a lot of things that you seem to have the wrong view of,
Toka! Maybe when you grow up you'll have learned more. LOL!!!
I am likely numerically older than you are, and am certainly more
mature than you are.

TokaMundo
2005-07-13 21:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its officers
are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale? People
have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a curiosity
in the desktop environment
Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
about it?
Post by billwg
Keep kidding yourself, though, you seem to enjoy it!
You keep kidding yourself. We'll be laughing.
billwg
2005-07-14 12:10:10 UTC
Permalink
"TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:45:10 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: us:
:
:
: >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
officers
: >are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale?
People
: >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
curiosity
: >in the desktop environment
:
:
: Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
: tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
: about it?

Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't seem to
last very long.

:
: >Keep kidding yourself, though, you seem to enjoy it!
:
: You keep kidding yourself. We'll be laughing.

I think the correct term is "giggling," Toka! LOL!!!
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 13:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't seem to
last very long.
Guess you haven't checked lately. Are all your facts about Linux
based on six year old information, or six year old FUD?
Kier
2005-07-14 15:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
: >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
officers
: >are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale?
People
: >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
curiosity
: >in the desktop environment
: Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
: tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
: about it?
Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't seem to
last very long.
There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You, on
the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
--
Kier
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 16:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kier
There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You, on
the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
I buy Linux Format DVD version here in the US. I find that what is
included on those DVDs is invaluable. Not only do I not have to
download it (whatever it happens to be) online, I do not have to
search for where it is either. Thanks to that magazine, I have several
Distros that I was able to check out, and that is also where I found
Suse! and found it to be GREAT!!! DOSbox TOO!
Kier
2005-07-14 16:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by TokaMundo
Post by Kier
There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You, on
the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
I buy Linux Format DVD version here in the US. I find that what is
included on those DVDs is invaluable. Not only do I not have to
download it (whatever it happens to be) online, I do not have to
search for where it is either. Thanks to that magazine, I have several
Distros that I was able to check out, and that is also where I found
Suse! and found it to be GREAT!!! DOSbox TOO!
Linux Format is the best of the UK mags, IMO, with plenty in it for
beginners as well as more experienced users. Well worth the subscription
to anyone who can't get it off the newsagent's shelves.
--
Kier
billwg
2005-07-14 16:46:18 UTC
Permalink
"Kier" <***@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message news:***@tiscali.co.uk...
: On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:10:10 +0000, billwg wrote:
:
: >
: > "TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message
: > news:***@4ax.com...
: > : On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:45:10 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com> Gave
: > : us:
: > :
: > :
: > : >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
: > officers
: > : >are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale?
: > People
: > : >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
: > curiosity
: > : >in the desktop environment
: > :
: > :
: > : Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
: > : tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
: > : about it?
: >
: > Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't seem to
: > last very long.
:
: There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
: Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You, on
: the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
:
Oh you are so lacking in humor, Kier! You should move to a warmer clime.
Are these rags profitable? Are they found at the news stands? That is not
the case here.
Kier
2005-07-14 16:57:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
: >
: > : >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
: > officers
: > : >are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale?
: > People
: > : >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
: > curiosity
: > : >in the desktop environment
: > : Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
: > : tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
: > : about it?
: >
: > Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't seem to
: > last very long.
: There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
: Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You, on
: the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
Oh you are so lacking in humor, Kier! You should move to a warmer clime.
Not thanks, I like it here.
Post by billwg
Are these rags profitable? Are they found at the news stands? That is not
the case here.
Where's here? They're in reputable newsagents over here in the UK, they
are not rags, and they are pretty sure to be profitable or they wouldn't
still be in business.

As for my sense of humour - where did you say anything funny? Talking out
of your arse doesn't count.
--
Kier
Patrick Grimbergen
2005-07-14 17:01:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
: >
: > : >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
: > officers
: > : >are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale?
: > People
: > : >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
: > curiosity
: > : >in the desktop environment
: > : Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
: > : tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
: > : about it?
: >
: > Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't seem to
: > last very long.
: There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
: Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You, on
: the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
Oh you are so lacking in humor, Kier! You should move to a warmer clime.
Are these rags profitable? Are they found at the news stands? That is not
the case here.
Bill,

I don't know where you are from, but every respectable newsstand (by
that I mean one that sells more then 20 different magazines) sells at
least 1 Linux Magazine.

There is a Dutch languaged Linux Magazine by HUB from Haarlem, they
turned a profit from their verry first issue a few years ago(I think it
is 6 years, but I am not sure).

This magazine you can buy in almost every corner news stand, additional
to this one most stand will have a veriety of international Linux
Magazines, ranging from English to French and from Spanish to German.
English is of course more prominent. My regular newsstand (Bruna chain)
has 5 english, 1 dutch, 2 german and 2 french on standard offer and
sometimes some others as well. Polish magazines seem to be on the
increase lately.

Hope this satisfies your need for magazines. I don't know if the
internationals are profitable, but I guess they are since most have been
around since forever, but the Dutch one is profitable by certainty!
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 17:59:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 19:01:14 +0200, Patrick Grimbergen
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Post by billwg
: >
: > : >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
: > officers
: > : >are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that tale?
: > People
: > : >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
: > curiosity
: > : >in the desktop environment
: > : Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
: > : tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
: > : about it?
: >
: > Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't seem to
: > last very long.
: There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
: Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You, on
: the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
Oh you are so lacking in humor, Kier! You should move to a warmer clime.
Are these rags profitable? Are they found at the news stands? That is not
the case here.
Bill,
I don't know where you are from, but every respectable newsstand (by
that I mean one that sells more then 20 different magazines) sells at
least 1 Linux Magazine.
There is a Dutch languaged Linux Magazine by HUB from Haarlem, they
turned a profit from their verry first issue a few years ago(I think it
is 6 years, but I am not sure).
This magazine you can buy in almost every corner news stand, additional
to this one most stand will have a veriety of international Linux
Magazines, ranging from English to French and from Spanish to German.
English is of course more prominent. My regular newsstand (Bruna chain)
has 5 english, 1 dutch, 2 german and 2 french on standard offer and
sometimes some others as well. Polish magazines seem to be on the
increase lately.
Hope this satisfies your need for magazines. I don't know if the
internationals are profitable, but I guess they are since most have been
around since forever, but the Dutch one is profitable by certainty!
He called Linux a "curiosity". I told him there were plenty of
profitable Linux magazines out there. You just showed him that there
are indeed many, and that across many many languages.

I wonder how many may be starting up or pressing in China.

Likely at least one in Hong Kong and Taiwan.

I remember Linux handhelds and PDAs as well (from that region).
They had cameras in them long before phones did.

I'd bet that China has more Linux going on than he knows. Those
guys are rampant with viruses (we had a couple of contract Mfgrs over
there that we got a LOT of virus attachments from) I'd bet that an
invulnerable OS like Linux is quite popular with the folks that are
tired of acquiring viruses.

I'd swear that the guys writing the "free" virus scanners actually
install them to attempt to sell you a removal tool!
billwg
2005-07-14 23:31:39 UTC
Permalink
"Patrick Grimbergen" <***@grimweb.info> wrote in message news:42d69ae9$0$3898$***@news.wanadoo.nl...
: billwg wrote:
: > "Kier" <***@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
: > news:***@tiscali.co.uk...
: > : On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:10:10 +0000, billwg wrote:
: > :
: > : >
: > : > "TokaMundo" <***@weedizgood.org> wrote in message
: > : > news:***@4ax.com...
: > : > : On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:45:10 GMT, "billwg" <***@twcf.rr.com>
Gave
: > : > : us:
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : > : >Now you say you believe those who tell you that Microsoft and its
: > : > officers
: > : > : >are quaking in their boots over linux, but who is telling that
tale?
: > : > People
: > : > : >have had access to linux for over 10 years now and it is still a
: > : > curiosity
: > : > : >in the desktop environment
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > : > : Tell us, Billy... if it is a mere curiosity why are there several
: > : > : tens of magazine publishers publishing quite profitable magazines
: > : > : about it?
: > : >
: > : > Are those linux magazines? How profitable are they? They don't
seem to
: > : > last very long.
: > :
: > : There are three in England alone, and they've all lasted years. Linux
: > : Format just grows and grows, and has readers all over the world. You,
on
: > : the other hand, continue to talk out of your nether orifice.
: > :
: > Oh you are so lacking in humor, Kier! You should move to a warmer
clime.
: > Are these rags profitable? Are they found at the news stands? That is
not
: > the case here.
: >
: >
:
:
: Bill,
:
: I don't know where you are from, but every respectable newsstand (by
: that I mean one that sells more then 20 different magazines) sells at
: least 1 Linux Magazine.
:

Well, I am truly amazed, Patrick. Around here, Orlando, Florida, there
isn't even 1 out of 20 computer magazines at the news stands.

: There is a Dutch languaged Linux Magazine by HUB from Haarlem, they
: turned a profit from their verry first issue a few years ago(I think it
: is 6 years, but I am not sure).
:
: This magazine you can buy in almost every corner news stand, additional
: to this one most stand will have a veriety of international Linux
: Magazines, ranging from English to French and from Spanish to German.
: English is of course more prominent. My regular newsstand (Bruna chain)
: has 5 english, 1 dutch, 2 german and 2 french on standard offer and
: sometimes some others as well. Polish magazines seem to be on the
: increase lately.
:
: Hope this satisfies your need for magazines. I don't know if the
: internationals are profitable, but I guess they are since most have been
: around since forever, but the Dutch one is profitable by certainty!
TokaMundo
2005-07-14 17:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Oh you are so lacking in humor, Kier! You should move to a warmer clime.
Are these rags profitable? Are they found at the news stands? That is not
the case here.
Jeez... you are so lacking in brains! First, you say Linux is a
curiosity, then, when told of it's popularity you attempt to
trivialize that. Adolescent nonsense!
r***@usa.net
2005-07-13 08:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by billwg
Post by John Kloosterman
Well - the problem here is the therm "market-share". It is perfectly
posible to see how many pieces of Windows OS are beeing sold, with Linux
however it is a different story. Most versions (distributions) of Linux
are free for download, so the users dont have to buy or register anyware.
That makes it almost impossible to figure out how many people are using
Linux. What makes it even more complicated is the fact that there are many
pirated versions of Windows, ánd a lot of people using Windows and Linux
in a mixed environment or as a double-boot system.
Market share statistics can vary radically depending on what you are
counting.
Count how many machines are "sold" with Linux preinstalled, and the
number is almost microscopic (since most Linux servers are configured
by the corporate administrator). Ironically, many of the servers now
running Linux were originally "Sold" as Windows machines.

You can count number of servers, which puts Linux at about 30% and
Windows at about 40%, with UNIX at about 30%, depending on the year
sampled.

You can also count revenue, but again, this will skew the numbers
toward Windows - especially if you make the distinction between License
fees and Support fees and do not include support fees in the count.

Again, because Linux usually gets the "leftovers" or "hand-me-downs",
Linux will be consistently be undercounted here too.

A very interesting approach is to count "function points" or
"processing equivalents". A single Linux server typically does the
work of 3-4 NT servers. A Solaris StarFire or HP Superdome can do the
work of 5,000 NT servers. A Z-Series e-server running ZVM and Linux
can do the work of 50,000 NT servers.
Post by billwg
Post by John Kloosterman
So -i think its impossible to get accurate figures. You can only use
statistic methodes, but then it depends on the willingness (and
acuressness) of the "statistical group" involved. It leaves also the door
wide open to "bias" the outcomings (as has happend in the past and wíll
happen in the future).
It's possible to get accurate figures, just very expensive. There are
services who do detailed studies, and gather the numbers a number of
different ways. Often, "abridged" reports are published about 6-12
months later for use by advertisers.
Post by billwg
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only pertains
to whether or not your product has the largest share of that market because
your position in the market somewhat dictates your strategy and what the
future might hold for you based on market characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important thing that
you can do is to determine just what your "market" consists of.
This is why it's so important to know the exact methodology used in the
survey.
It's also necessary to have the raw numbers as well as the various
percentages. It's also important to have the breakdown of anything in
the "other" classification.

One of the great classic surveys is the "ip/browser" counter survey. A
company did a survey of something like 500 sites, all running Windows
based servers, and doing "browser counts". Further disclosure of the
details showed that this company was only counting Linux on IP
addresses that showed ONLY Linux. Furthermore, it was counting DHCP
pools indescribinately as well. In this survey, Linux got less than
1%, but this was ONLY browsers that had "Linux" in the browser
signature. A bit of research into the 3% marked "other" showed that
nearly all of the "other" turned out to be Linux because Netscape and
others were not specifically placing "Linux" into the default
signature.
Post by billwg
The market for "Intel compatible desktop client operating system software",
which is the market area that Microsoft was found to have monopoly power
within, was determined by the Jackson court to specifically exclude Apple
computers and their software as well as Linux computers.
I think that even at the time that the trial started, Apple had less
than 5% of the established market share. Microsoft claimed during
their defense testimony that Linux had 14% of the market. It's quite
possible that Microsoft was counting cookies against signatures and
tracking all permutations. This would be about the only reliable type
of count. Even then, you might get dual-boot machines counted as both
Windows and Linux (since there would be two different cookies), or
VMWare images.
Post by billwg
Apple was excluded
then because it was not Intel compatible and Linux was excluded because it
was a server product.
During the trial, Microsoft did try to give Linux a much larger market
share. I found it significant that no one actually challenged them. I
might have been grounds for challenging the findings of fact as well as
the findings of Law.
They just dropped a big number and everybody let it slip.
Post by billwg
Given that definition, Microsoft has 100% of the
market or very close to it, since today there clearly is some linux aimed at
desktops and some money has changed hands on that basis.
One of my favorite numbers is the number of licenses Microsoft claims
to have shipped/sold, and the number of PCs the OEMs claim they have
shipped. Microsoft has about 120% of the market by that count. I know
from the period of time I was setting next to the cubicle used by the
Microsoft rep to make calls to a number of customers and decision
makers that the sales rep was offering substantial discounts to
corporate customers when they purchased more licenses than they
actually needed.

Of course, since Microsoft often oversells the OEM and then oversells
Windows licenses to Corporate customers for the same machines - it's
even conceivable that Microsoft has over 200% of the market. And since
Microsoft donates tax deductable Windows licenses to 501C organizations
when the machines above are donated to charities, Microsoft might even
have something like 250% of the market. If you think about it, it's
really quite a feat of marketing.
Post by billwg
The money is what makes the market. Markets are measured in terms of the
money spent to buy products that compete in the same market and market
growth or decline is measured in terms of money increases or decreases over
time. It has nothing to do with how many people use the products or how
often they use them. It only depends on how much money they spend annually
for the products.
This certainly gives Microsoft the advantage. If you figure Microsoft
licenses and cost about 3 times the price of Linux licenses, and that
Linux hardware is mostly hand-me-down hardware from Windows, Windows is
certainly going to have the biggest dollar sign percentage.
Post by billwg
If a customer purchases a linux based PC to replace a Windows based PC, that
is a loss of share for Microsoft.
The more interesting case is when a customer purchases a new Windows PC
to replace an older Windows PC, then the old PC is converted to Linux.

The practice of purchasing a new machine for Linux seems to have
increased since the availability of AMD-64 bit chip.
Post by billwg
If the customer switches from Sun servers
and terminals to some distributed linux based PC network, that is a growth
of the desktop market as well as a share loss by Microsoft, but it is also
an opportunity for Microsoft to compete for the business.
This one is more tricky. If someone were to upgrade from a group of
10-12 Sun servers with 2 1 billion instruction per second processors,
to a StarFire with 64 processors each running 4 billion
instructions/second or roughly 128 times more power, they might not
need so many servers. By server count, Sun is losing market share, by
cost, the supporting hardware of the separate machines would make the
new server cost less - again, Sun loses market share. Of course, in
reality, the Sun box is actually doing the work of more machines.
Post by billwg
Post by John Kloosterman
So - i guess there wil be no conclusive answer. I think however that the 1
percent mentionned is a far to low figure. In my neigbourhood i have seen
an strong increase of Linux desktop usters in the last half year, so i
think that figure is very dated...
Again, it depends on what you are counting. The range goes from less
than 1% of all the machines sold in the United States by OEMs, to as
high as 35% of the server market based on number of servers. If you
really want a stretch, you can figure Linux is almost 40% based on
"function point" counts - essentially "NT equivalents".
Post by billwg
Post by John Kloosterman
John.
TokaMundo
2005-07-13 08:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by r***@usa.net
Post by billwg
Post by John Kloosterman
Well - the problem here is the therm "market-share". It is perfectly
posible to see how many pieces of Windows OS are beeing sold, with Linux
however it is a different story. Most versions (distributions) of Linux
are free for download, so the users dont have to buy or register anyware.
That makes it almost impossible to figure out how many people are using
Linux. What makes it even more complicated is the fact that there are many
pirated versions of Windows, ?nd a lot of people using Windows and Linux
in a mixed environment or as a double-boot system.
Market share statistics can vary radically depending on what you are
counting.
Count how many machines are "sold" with Linux preinstalled, and the
number is almost microscopic (since most Linux servers are configured
by the corporate administrator). Ironically, many of the servers now
running Linux were originally "Sold" as Windows machines.
You can count number of servers, which puts Linux at about 30% and
Windows at about 40%, with UNIX at about 30%, depending on the year
sampled.
You can also count revenue, but again, this will skew the numbers
toward Windows - especially if you make the distinction between License
fees and Support fees and do not include support fees in the count.
Again, because Linux usually gets the "leftovers" or "hand-me-downs",
Linux will be consistently be undercounted here too.
A very interesting approach is to count "function points" or
"processing equivalents". A single Linux server typically does the
work of 3-4 NT servers. A Solaris StarFire or HP Superdome can do the
work of 5,000 NT servers. A Z-Series e-server running ZVM and Linux
can do the work of 50,000 NT servers.
Post by billwg
Post by John Kloosterman
So -i think its impossible to get accurate figures. You can only use
statistic methodes, but then it depends on the willingness (and
acuressness) of the "statistical group" involved. It leaves also the door
wide open to "bias" the outcomings (as has happend in the past and w?ll
happen in the future).
It's possible to get accurate figures, just very expensive. There are
services who do detailed studies, and gather the numbers a number of
different ways. Often, "abridged" reports are published about 6-12
months later for use by advertisers.
Post by billwg
The term "market share" only relates to the share of some identified market
captured by some product provider to that market. It really only pertains
to whether or not your product has the largest share of that market because
your position in the market somewhat dictates your strategy and what the
future might hold for you based on market characteristics that have been
determined to be predictable from the past. The most important thing that
you can do is to determine just what your "market" consists of.
This is why it's so important to know the exact methodology used in the
survey.
It's also necessary to have the raw numbers as well as the various
percentages. It's also important to have the breakdown of anything in
the "other" classification.
One of the great classic surveys is the "ip/browser" counter survey. A
company did a survey of something like 500 sites, all running Windows
based servers, and doing "browser counts". Further disclosure of the
details showed that this company was only counting Linux on IP
addresses that showed ONLY Linux. Furthermore, it was counting DHCP
pools indescribinately as well. In this survey, Linux got less than
1%, but this was ONLY browsers that had "Linux" in the browser
signature. A bit of research into the 3% marked "other" showed that
nearly all of the "other" turned out to be Linux because Netscape and
others were not specifically placing "Linux" into the default
signature.
Post by billwg
The market for "Intel compatible desktop client operating system software",
which is the market area that Microsoft was found to have monopoly power
within, was determined by the Jackson court to specifically exclude Apple
computers and their software as well as Linux computers.
I think that even at the time that the trial started, Apple had less
than 5% of the established market share. Microsoft claimed during
their defense testimony that Linux had 14% of the market. It's quite
possible that Microsoft was counting cookies against signatures and
tracking all permutations. This would be about the only reliable type
of count. Even then, you might get dual-boot machines counted as both
Windows and Linux (since there would be two different cookies), or
VMWare images.
Post by billwg
Apple was excluded
then because it was not Intel compatible and Linux was excluded because it
was a server product.
During the trial, Microsoft did try to give Linux a much larger market
share. I found it significant that no one actually challenged them. I
might have been grounds for challenging the findings of fact as well as
the findings of Law.
They just dropped a big number and everybody let it slip.
Post by billwg
Given that definition, Microsoft has 100% of the
market or very close to it, since today there clearly is some linux aimed at
desktops and some money has changed hands on that basis.
One of my favorite numbers is the number of licenses Microsoft claims
to have shipped/sold, and the number of PCs the OEMs claim they have
shipped. Microsoft has about 120% of the market by that count. I know
from the period of time I was setting next to the cubicle used by the
Microsoft rep to make calls to a number of customers and decision
makers that the sales rep was offering substantial discounts to
corporate customers when they purchased more licenses than they
actually needed.
Of course, since Microsoft often oversells the OEM and then oversells
Windows licenses to Corporate customers for the same machines - it's
even conceivable that Microsoft has over 200% of the market. And since
Microsoft donates tax deductable Windows licenses to 501C organizations
when the machines above are donated to charities, Microsoft might even
have something like 250% of the market. If you think about it, it's
really quite a feat of marketing.
Post by billwg
The money is what makes the market. Markets are measured in terms of the
money spent to buy products that compete in the same market and market
growth or decline is measured in terms of money increases or decreases over
time. It has nothing to do with how many people use the products or how
often they use them. It only depends on how much money they spend annually
for the products.
This certainly gives Microsoft the advantage. If you figure Microsoft
licenses and cost about 3 times the price of Linux licenses, and that
Linux hardware is mostly hand-me-down hardware from Windows, Windows is
certainly going to have the biggest dollar sign percentage.
Post by billwg
If a customer purchases a linux based PC to replace a Windows based PC, that
is a loss of share for Microsoft.
The more interesting case is when a customer purchases a new Windows PC
to replace an older Windows PC, then the old PC is converted to Linux.
The practice of purchasing a new machine for Linux seems to have
increased since the availability of AMD-64 bit chip.
Post by billwg
If the customer switches from Sun servers
and terminals to some distributed linux based PC network, that is a growth
of the desktop market as well as a share loss by Microsoft, but it is also
an opportunity for Microsoft to compete for the business.
This one is more tricky. If someone were to upgrade from a group of
10-12 Sun servers with 2 1 billion instruction per second processors,
to a StarFire with 64 processors each running 4 billion
instructions/second or roughly 128 times more power, they might not
need so many servers. By server count, Sun is losing market share, by
cost, the supporting hardware of the separate machines would make the
new server cost less - again, Sun loses market share. Of course, in
reality, the Sun box is actually doing the work of more machines.
Post by billwg
Post by John Kloosterman
So - i guess there wil be no conclusive answer. I think however that the 1
percent mentionned is a far to low figure. In my neigbourhood i have seen
an strong increase of Linux desktop usters in the last half year, so i
think that figure is very dated...
Again, it depends on what you are counting. The range goes from less
than 1% of all the machines sold in the United States by OEMs, to as
high as 35% of the server market based on number of servers. If you
really want a stretch, you can figure Linux is almost 40% based on
"function point" counts - essentially "NT equivalents".
Wow... excellent, and startling observations!
TokaMundo
2005-07-12 13:03:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 14:15:01 +0200, John Kloosterman
Post by John Kloosterman
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Sorry, posted this one wrongly... so again... this time the right way...
Linux is FREE...Market Share, less that 1.0 percent as a desktop
system.
Is this true?
Servers I think are about 80%, is it not?
Linux Desktop are a strange thing. If I look at my websites I get
conflicting results from the statistics. My websites are all generic
sports, museums, travel agency etc, hosted in the Netherlands and the UK.
20% Linux/*BSD (Audistat) [http://www.schoolkorfball.org. uk]
14% Linux/*BSD (Audistat) [http://www.grimweb.info]
00% Linux/*BSD (Nedstat) [http://www.fordmuseum.nl]
None of the websites are particularly advertised in any group of OS
users. I could partly be the program, but I don't believe it should make
such a big difference. The travel agent [http://www.grimweb.info] is
most visited, and is a bit in between the both values.
I do not visit my own websites, since I can test off-line, before uploading.
How's other websites doing in this matter? 1% seems to be an
understatement.
Well - the problem here is the therm "market-share". It is perfectly
posible to see how many pieces of Windows OS are beeing sold, with Linux
however it is a different story. Most versions (distributions) of Linux
are free for download, so the users dont have to buy or register
anyware. That makes it almost impossible to figure out how many people
are using Linux. What makes it even more complicated is the fact that
there are many pirated versions of Windows, ?nd a lot of people using
Windows and Linux in a mixed environment or as a double-boot system.
So -i think its impossible to get accurate figures. You can only use
statistic methodes, but then it depends on the willingness (and
acuressness) of the "statistical group" involved. It leaves also the
door wide open to "bias" the outcomings (as has happend in the past and
w?ll happen in the future).
So - i guess there wil be no conclusive answer. I think however that the
1 percent mentionned is a far to low figure. In my neigbourhood i have
seen an strong increase of Linux desktop usters in the last half year,
so i think that figure is very dated...
Great, valid observations by both of you...

I believe that Linux is more popular among the "techno" class of
user... One that is willing to or wants to or does know what is going
on under the hood of their hardware.

What does the data acquisition realm use most? VMS hardware?
I guess there are a lot of "levels" of data acquisition as well...
from the El Cheapo route done by your average ma and pa shop, to the
ultra sophisticated stuff used by the big boys like boeing and NASA,
etc.

When I worked at General Instrument in there satellite uplink encoder
division, they had nearly every flavor of every OS one could name in
their engineering labs, but the main net was Unix. Of course... that
was ten years ago... I'd be willing to bet they (now Motorola) are
using Linux a lot there. Hell they bought $40k Xerox wax xfer
printers way back in the early days of color printing... Those guys
play with the newest and fanciest hardware like there's no tomorrow...
Patrick Grimbergen
2005-07-14 05:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
Sorry, posted this one wrongly... so again... this time the right way...
Linux is FREE...Market Share, less that 1.0 percent as a desktop
system.
Is this true?
Servers I think are about 80%, is it not?
<snip>
Post by Patrick Grimbergen
How's other websites doing in this matter? 1% seems to be an
understatement.
According to Microsoft Linux has a marketshare of 14%
(see above post/Microsoft anti-trust case)

This sounds more into the direction of the real marketshare to me then 1%.
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